Mo & Joe thread

[Joseph]

Welcome to our thread for me and Molotov. Please know that this thread is not just for us two-- anyone else can join in. We just need a primary thread for our communication since it doesn't make sense to continue using a thread whose subject doesn't relate to what we are saying anymore. Everyone is welcome.

I finally figured out why I like Two-Mix so much! The more I listened to them, the more I realized that they use a Baroque-like style in their music. I have long been fascinated with Baroque style music, with proponents like Bach and Handel. The Baroque style is marked by the following characteristics:

- abundant notes
- stylistic dance
- controlled structure
- multiple simultaneous melody lines
- orientation towards chorus
- motoric and repeating motives
- extravagant melody but controlled rhythm

These features are characterized in Two-Mix's music. If you listen to "Winter Love Express," and other songs, you might notice it basically sounds like a classical/baroque song all the way through (they even use a harpsichord-sounding instrument near the beginning), but they put it into a dance rhythm. Every one of their songs has a unique bassline, and Minami often uses pianos, strings, harps, and brass-like instruments (as do some other groups), but they are awesome at using techno-sounding instruments as well. Their motoric-sounding bass is very important to their sound.

If you study Two-Mix songs like I do, you'd notice basically every Two-Mix song has the same structure: motive-verse-chorus, motive-verse-chorus, cadence-chorus. The cadence, which is usually about 2/3rds of the way through the song, is just a break and is often used as the 'climax' of the song. Their variety of different instruments in the different sections allow the song to be long without sounding tiring. For example, in their song "Trust Me," they only use four short, fast notes for strings in each verse of the chorus, intermingling with the other melodies. They change instruments very often. Another important thing to notice is that the melodies last longer before they repeat. So much of the failure of dance music that I have heard nowadays is that they repeat the same couple of notes in a short melody over and over, sometimes throughout the whole song, so it gets tiresome.

I also noticed that the instruments rarely follow Minami's voice exactly; this demonstrates multiple melody lines, which is called polyphony, another mark of Baroque music.

I just ordered a course from the Teaching Company called "Bach and the High Baroque," so I can't wait to study Bach's songs and this remarkable musical style in detail. I just learned the difference between major chords and minor chords today, so I'm learning a little music a time. I'm glad I know more now than I did yesterday. One day, once I've studied and practiced more, I will probably become a musician, and I will do this by using some music creation software.

[molotov889]

Hahahaha!! This is AWESOME! I'm liking it, Joseph.

That was quite an in-depth review of Two-Mix's music. I know I like to go into some detail every now and then, but wow, nothing I've written compares to what you just wrote there. Seems exciting to be learning so much more about music, though. Again, without the constraints of grad school, I'm sure it's something I'd like to be studying as well. Especially since I had so much fun making my (sorta crappy) remixes for PlanetAcid. I really would have liked to have more knowledge to do more.

I've always sort of been a little musically.... challenged =P. In elementary, I was one of the few kids who couldn't figure out the recorder (still can't). I picked up keyboard for a while, but didn't get far without a teacher. Then I tried guitar, with a teacher (two in fact). Didn't work either. I think I get tired by the attention and some of the tediousness associated with playing an instrument.

Maybe what I need is to take up singing or dance. That may work out better for me. Although, I may be past my "prime" for takign voice lessons, huh? =P


Anyway, about that baroque style you were talking about... reading some of that certianly reminded me of other groups, but Globe in particular as to how they often approach their songs. Although they may not use the instruments you mentioned, the song structure seems similar. (Incidentally, check out my review of Maniac, you'd probably like the song Please Don't Give Up.)

When you hear new info about the next Two-Mix album, let me know. I kind of want to follwo this one, too.

[Variable]

I picked up Yo Yo Ma's CD "Simply Baroque" a while back even though I was "simply broke" and it's pretty good music.

Joe, I've noticed a few rumblings from Kaiyuu's Yahoo group, is there a new Two Mix album brewing?

[Joseph]

Thanks, Molotov, that's a plug for the Teaching Company right there. I just check out your review of Maniac, and I realize I'd be a fool to miss out on a 2-disc Globe album.

Variable, thanks for letting me know of Kaijyuu's message. She didn't have any additional information, but at least I know she's there to talk about the new mini-album. I finally got my CDJapan newsmail about II Mix Delta's new release as well, due out May 25.

Although many of Two-Mix's songs follow the structure I mentioned earlier, there are some songs that start off with the chorus. Just Communication and Believe come to mind. The sequence might be a little different, but it is predictable. Also another feature I noticed in Two-Mix songs is that they often use 3 or 4 'strong notes' at the beginning of each line in the chorus. La Vie en Rose is a perfect example of this. You hear a pounding "LA VIE'EN ROSE" at the beginning, and then the rest of the line, the you hear it again with "C'EST LA VIE," and then the rest of the line goes off into its own melody. I've noticed this characteristic in other songs too, like Winter Love Express whose chorus starts with "Far dis-tance," and Break whose chorus starts with "Break my lies."

I also love the way that they use new instruments to segue between different sections. Now that I hear it, they use rising and falling harmonies a lot. Most of the time when you hear a harp in Two-Mix (e.g. White Reflection or Winter Love Express), the notes are doing either a rising or falling sequence. This gives it a sort of spiritual feel. They use this rising/falling device for other instruments also quite often. Dream's song "Turn it into Love" also uses rising and falling devices, and one of the reasons I love it so much is that the second sequence is altogether higher than the first sequence. And the very last sequence doesn't fall-- it stays at the high notes, the better, higher, and more positive plane of existence.

You have to admit, Globe songs don't seem to have the same strict structure as Two-Mix, and their songs vary in length quite a bit, but that's not a bad thing. You know I like songs like Over the Rainbow because of its more controlled structure. However, I like What's the Justice better than Come Into Existence on Lights, even though What's the Justice doesn't have as much structure, because it has a nice variety of instruments.

[molotov889]

I just checked out the tracklist on that new Ami Suzuki remix album. Did you realize every other song was a remix of Around The World? Was that song just that insanely good or popular that it got remixed so many times? Also, I have to admit that I like the lineup of remixers. They've got Clazziquai, Wall 5, Ferry Corsten, Jonathan Peters, and even DMX Miyazaki (Dub remixes). Those first two are a couple of my favorite DJs in recent times. The last three, though, did some great stuff during Ayumi's remix run. Especially DMX Miyazaki. Hands-down, he created the most tracks on my list of favorite Ayu remixes. I've also heard a couple Space Cowboy tracks (I believe from an M-Flo remix or two), and seem ro remember that his tracks usually have a nice mix of hip-hop, rnb, and and techno. Looks like a pretty promising album. I may add it to my "to buy" list. At the least, it's going in my Yesasia Wish List =P.

[Joseph]

I suppose you'd have to be a real fan of Around the World to get that remix album. I've never heard of those remixers, other than Clazziquai you recently mentioned. As a remix fan, do you really like to listen to lots of different versions of the same song anyway?

People use the phrase "end on a high note" casually, but for music artists like Two-Mix, it is an important device. Do you know how many sections of Two-Mix songs end in high notes? I've been listening for them lately, and there are plenty. I can't explain it; it just gives the song a kinda positive tone.

Two-Mix's lyrics are very encouraging and positive. And that's what I think music should be like. Two-Mix sings about love, but also virtues like persistence, honesty, and decision making, which makes them sophisticated. In the English version of True Navigation, they say, "Here's my resolution: never give up evermore." I want not only love, but to be a better person. There's a song called "Get Up Stand Up" by Stellar Project, in which they say, "Don't cry, don't lie, open your eyes, take me to the limit, never let me go." I love it; it's the kind of thing Two-Mix would say. One of my favourite lines in Winter Love Express is translated as "We'll never be apart, and we'll never be made sad again."

Even though they are positive, Two-Mix sings about sadness, doubt, and pain all the time, but they would never insult love or use blame. Songs where people fall out of love can be tricky because you need tact, so I looked up an example of a Two-Mix 'bad love' song, Last Tears ~I Don't Cry Anymore, After You Left Me~, and they said, "Thanks.. meeting was not a mistake, on what kind of day you gave me freedom." "I planned on kindness, but got hurt." They believe in love, but also responsibility. A lot of their songs are about going places or seeing things, but as far as I know, they've never used any specific names of places or people; it's still abstract. Although they did do a song called "Mission 'Cinderella'" on Rhythm Formula, where they reference the tale.

One of the great things about Japanese lyrics is that pronouns are often omitted, so sometimes you have the flexibility of figuring out who they are singing about. I certainly have not mastered the nuances of all the Japanese language used in songs, have you? I always wonder how Two-Mix can make such complex music, and how they "make" new instruments for every song. The lyrics by Shiina Nagano. Minami Takayama provides the music. Shiina is a very intelligent songwriter; listening to their lyrics, he makes Minami sound like an awesome person!

A long time ago, Variable and I were jokingly talking about opening up a Jpop university. Maybe it's time to reconsider doing that! I know that I'd like to learn about it. Plus I want to be professor of Two-Mixology!

[Variable]

Haha, Two-Mixology. Wonder who the professor emeritus of Movism would be...

[molotov889]

Joseph, yeah, I definitely love collecting many versions of the same song. It keeps the songs much more alive and interesting to me. It's one of the reasons that I loved the old-school Ayumi singles so much. If you haven't looked at any of the tracklists, check it out one day. They're seriosuly almost whole albums made of remixes to 2 (maybe 3) songs. I just loved that idea.

In fact, since I'm on the topic, you sorta mentioned how Two-Mix can have positive-sounding music for a song that is actually pretty sad. Ayumi has always done that same thing. The weird thing about it is, that combination seems to make the song even better. It almost adds another dimension of quality and "beauty" to it, sometimes. I mean, in essence, the music is tricking you, but the fact that the artist can still put it off may speak volumes.

And about that J-pop University... I think I' have too many interest to concentrate on just one topic .

[Joseph]

It's good to take time to analyze what singers sing about, because we are filling our heads with it day after day (even if you don't know Japanese well). It must be difficult to write such sophisticated lyrics about love. I guess that's why they're the music artists and we're not!

This might sound harsh, but I usually view remixes as being filler songs because the artist is too lazy to come up with new songs. I'm almost always disappointed with remixes. Of course, this mindset is based on the European dance CDs that I have gotten in the past. I basically never listen to the remixes because I don't think they're nearly as good -- they tend to have repetitive sounds in them. So maybe you can tell me why do you like to hear different instruments for the same words? If a song is good, I just want to listen to the same thing over and over.

There are some exceptions that I like of course, like the remixes on Megumi Hayashibara's Center Color, which are totally suitable. In fact, there's the original version and remix version of Northern Lights are right next to each other, and that's okay because they sound so different. And I do like both versions-- I love all the remixes on Center Color. In fact, I think Center Color is the best Jpop album of 2004.

Even though I don't like most remixes, I do nevertheless love instrumental/non-vocal versions.

When it comes to Globe, I like the single versions of their songs better than the album versions. The singles are so great. Most Jpop artists that I know don't make such drastic changes to their songs when they convert them from singles to albums like Globe does. I also remember telling you that on KCO, I like both the original and the remix version of Umi to no Yuujou equally.

By the way, after all this time, I still like Changin' My Life as much as ever. Knowing this, I'm thinking about getting their first self-titled album. Right now I only have their second album Caravan, and none of Myco's "solo" disks yet.

Also, Two-Mix has an album called Baroque Best, in which they do a baroque orchestra version of some of their songs. It's a nice album. I just didn't think that 'baroque' would come to mean the style of the rest of their music too!

[Variable]

The other night, Joe and I were talking about movie remakes and which was the earliest and so forth. Didn't we figure that Ben Hur was the earliest movie remake?

If you think about it, a song remix/cover is nothing more than a remake of a song. I wonder what the first remix/cover was.

Joe, you have the English language version of True Navigation?

[molotov889]

To me, a remix doesn't necessarily have to be better than the original in order for me to want to listen to it. In fact, there are a lot of remixes I have that I don't like as much as the original. But sometimes, I may be in the mood for that musical style or the tempo of the remix as opposed to the original. It makes the songs more flexible.

And as for repetition, I have two answers. First of all, you'd be very hard-pressed to find many songs that aren't repetitious, even in mainstream genres. It's part of what makes the songs memorable; it's why the chorus is the most-often remembered part of songs. Especially when it's catchy. Yes, the repetition might tend to be more once a DJ gets his hands on it, but it's not like it's completely different from all musical precedent. Secondly, the ones that are REALLY repetetive are most often meant for the dancefloor, where it actually serves a purpose. Could you imagine a club full of people trying to dance to a song that changes pitch, tempo, etc. every few seconds? It'd prolly be funny to watch, but I doubt the dancers would be having much fun.

I think what happens is many people just think of the "techno" or "house" remixes when they talk about them, and tend to leave out all the other genres that DJs and producers use. I mean, Move has LOTS of techno/trance remixes. But then listen to the Groove That Soul mix of Stay With Me. Totally different; almost bordering on a funk/soul. Or take the entire Tropican Trops album. None of those songs fit the steroetypical "super long" or "really repetitious" qualifiers most people think of for remixes. They really were more like alternate versions.

I think when you think of remixes in this way, it should become much easier to enjoy them. One thing that kind of surprises me about peoples' reaction to remixes is this:

In general, people seem to really love collaboration tracks. Heck, M-Flo's been making all their money off them for their past two albums. What is a remix if not a collabo project between the original artists and the DJ/producer? Why is it that the same enthusiasm doesn't carry over?

And as for filler, that's probably just limited like you said. I don't really think whole remix albums can be called filler. And the old singles of Ayu certianly weren't filler; noone was twisting those DJs' arms to get them to do remixes, everyone just wanted to remix Ayu.

Sorry for the mini-rant. I've just been thinking of this a lot.

[Joseph]

From the beginning, you've had a liking for remixes. I'm glad you like remixes, but I haven't had exposure to a lot of great remixes, and I just don't share your passion for them. I'm just more susceptible to thinking that remakes are an attempt to keep trying to create another version because the original was dissatisfactory. I think sometimes companies use remixes as a gimmick. We might need to agree to disagree about remixes, and that's okay. It is true that repetitive dance remixes have their place on the dancefloor, but I find departure and return to different melodies preferable for most occasions. One of the reasons I like Sylver so much is that they have dance beats within the the confines of a pop song, which is the song structure I like the most. Don't get me wrong- I'm not trying to change your opinion at all; I've just been so disappointed with remixes in the past. Maybe you can continue to give me a good examples of remixes that I might like.

Looking at what Two-Mix does, their original mixes are always the best, and Minami composes each one with great care and precision. IMO I think she's the best musician I've heard. I love this consistent instrumental quality. I guess I'm so picky, and I don't know who the remixers are or what style they use.

For the past few days, I've been trying to play Two-Mix on the piano. I was bothering Variable yesterday by telling him which major key the songs were in. Right now I'm in the process of transcribing Winter Love Express (which is in E-flat) to music sheets because it's one of my favourite songs of all time. Studying in painstaking detail, maybe I'll be able to see how Minami makes her baroque dance music so intricate and beautiful.

As I mentioned before, I'm also studying baroque music in detail too, with my audio course. I also just bought a new music book so I can learn popular classical songs on the piano, like Beethoven and Tchaikovsky, etc. I was encouraged by the fact that my piano e-lessons have been paying off because earlier this week I learned how to play "Jesus Loves Me" with both hands in two days (right now the ONLY music books we have at our house are hymn books).

[Variable]

I didn't think you were bothering me. Turns out after all that work, they weren't buying that particular book back.

I've been trying to find an MP3 or two of her "Around the World" song, I doubt it's the Move song. She also has one called "Forever Love" that's nothing like the X-Japan song of the same name. So far, I've been less than successful in obtaining a copy of Around the World, but might be able to in the coming days.

Will report back.

[molotov889]

Same to you; I wasn't trying to change your mind. I've just had this discussion with others and have had time to think about it. As for other examples, the entire Astromantic Charm School by M-Flo certainly comes to mind. Clazziquai's song Come To Me was remixed for their first remix album ZBAM. It was called the Mellotron Remix and was 10,000x's more beautiful. In fact, when they made the music video for the song, they used the remix. I think Move acutlaly has a few really good examples. There's the LA Style remix of OO7, there's the Tatsumaki mix of Romancing Train, and personally, I really like the Dabby Budda NRG Remix of Future Breeze. I also really like the Soundless Rain remix of Painless Pain. The Ferry Corsten Remix of A Song For XX by Ayumi is another one that was transforme dinto somethin 10,000x's as beautiful. Really, I could probably list a lot of great remixes. (Or maybe just great in my opinion .)

Honestly, I only have remix album from the old Two-Mix, so I can't really compare the originals. I think I remember some of them from back in the day, but I'm pretty sure that back then, I liked their remixes better. Something about the way her voice went with the instrumentals they wrote that I didn't think was as good as it could be. I do love the BPM remix CD i have, though.

[Joseph]

The Dubby Budda NRG remix of Future Breeze is appropriate for the dancefloor, but I don't prefer it as much because it's a little to repetitive for my liking. It seems that it's no longer a pop song. I like what you might call the "catches and hooks" of a pop song. But it is good to hear what aspects you like about these songs. I do however, like the Orbitribe version of Future Breeze because of its variations, and sequence of different melodies. I like the Orbitribe version as well as the original Future Breeze.

Something I like about classical, pop, and dance songs is repeating piano melodies in the background, but not throughout the whole song, just in its sections. That's one thing I really like about some euro dance artists like In-Grid. Like many people, I love strings. A lot of older baroque features the harpsichord (which is used by Malice Mizer in some songs), and consequently, it sounds similar to a Chinese guqin (zither) which Variable was telling me about a few weeks ago, and "guqin" has the same character symbol as the one used for the Japanese koto.

I'm finally done transcribing Winter Love Express. It was hard work. I know that there is transcription software out there, but still, I needed to figure this out for myself. I know that after six years of listening to Two-Mix, I'm still a Two-Mix maniac, but as you know, the group is exactly to my liking. I've already talked about specific aspects I admire in them: the constant changing of instruments, the mechanical-sounding bassline, constant tempo, the ornamental transition between sections, the order of melodies, and the controlled structure. Certainly not all music has to sound like this, but it is my ideal. It's not just Two-Mix; I like most baroque music. Baroque music touches my soul -- it's like the joyful feeling knowing that you're doing the most fun thing you could be doing.

Why is Ayu so popular? What aspects of her music really stand out for you? Are the instruments great? Are the lyrics awesome? What is unique about her? What Ayu songs would you recommend?

Even though I'm strangely particular about music, most other things I'm not nearly as picky about. For example, I'm also a comic freak. I will basically read any comic; comic strips, comic books, graphic novels, whether it be humour, editorial, or drama. If there is one thing important I look for, it's the underlying message -- is it good or bad? I read several dozen comic strips a day, and I draw my own comic as well. In general, when it comes to other media, like TV and movies, I also like the control aspect to be there too. I much prefer Hitchcock, which is very oriented towards the story and very controlled in the direction, to reality TV, which generally real-time, uncontrolled, unscripted, and would be little different than peeking into the neighbor's window.